You thought homeschooling was great. You thought that looking at everything from a biblical perspective was right. You thought Christian education was the way to go. You thought American government was on a slide from Biblical values.
Think again.
According to Pastor Don Wilky, that’s all way out.
In an article published at EthicsDaily.com on April 27th, Mr. Wilky sets out to answer the question “What’s being taught in Christian Schools?” Unfortunately he fails from the first sentence. In fact, he fails all the way through. In fact he doesn’t answer the question at all. But what he does do is even worse.
‘Prejudice by association’ is an infamous trick, but it’s a dumb one. I thought at first that Wilky had a bad experience with homeschoolers. After reading some of his other works I realized there was an even deeper problem. In an exclusive interview with Pastor Wilky, Oneway Purpose asked if he would have a problem with homeschooling if the material were satisfactory. He replied, “I am not against homeschooling and it is a good thing for many students since a secular society is snuffing out many Christians in public.”
But he didn’t take the time to say that while he tried to slam us all into the nail-box of extremism. The goal of his article wasn’t to promote homeschooling. The goal of his article wasn’t to tell us what’s being taught in Christian schools. The goal was to prejudice his readers against homeschooling.
From the start, you get a weird feeling about it. The first two paragraphs are made to sound antagonistic, but you don’t get the point. He starts off talking about a lady he met on a bus who was reading a book on the Christian version of math. He says, “I found the idea rather strange that there was a definite biblical view distinctly different from the secular view of math.” Strange or no strange, I’d think that a pastor would be greatly interested in that.
The next paragraph is just as dumb. It starts, “The creationism issue has rapidly gained momentum in the nation, in contrast to evolution taught in biology class.” I’m thinking, “Amen, amen, and amen, it’s about time.” He twists around and says, “...literature promoted in home-school and Christian-academy circles also has a different slant to social studies—some quite alarming.” I’m starting to notice a trend of state-then-prejudice. What’s coming is worse.
“Early Religious Right leader Billy Hargis, like his John Birch Society friends, believes that Joe McCarthy was a great American hero vindicated by secret Soviet documents. ... I have run into some Southern Baptist fundamentalist leaders who charge that Martin Luther King was a fraud.”
Now this is getting into the dirty stuff big time. I don’t know or care about Billy Hargis, John Birch Society, or Joe McCarthy. In fact Wilky, don’t be surprised if most homeschoolers don’t. But he’s not writing to us, he’d like to make everybody think that homeschoolers are extremists. And by the way, meeting some fundamentalist pastors with way-out views doesn’t have anything to do with homeschoolers or homeschooling.
And apparently, according to Wilky, “Such points of reference tend to give a decided slant to text books produced to please the crowd’s opinions.” Interesting! This spikes us into wondering what textbooks these are he’s talking about. We’re tuned, but he doesn’t tell us, instead he throws around a couple names such as “Abeka” or “Bob Jones” in the next paragraphs, leaving us to wonder the point of reference. Most readers aren’t being critical so they apply the first to the second. His ploy has worked, and neither Abeka or Bob Jones has anything to do with the fundamentalist he met.
What’s worse is next he starts griping about “Accelerated Christian Education”. He picked the wrong thing this time. That’s my school. I remember all his quotes. He says, “Baptist Sunday school teacher Jimmy Carter is described as someone who “claimed to be a believer.” The science book says there is only a choice between evolution and God.” Yuppers, I remember that well. Apparently Wilky thinks being a Sunday school teacher makes you a Christian. Apparently he thinks you can still believe in the Supreme Creator after discharging his creative power. He’s entitled to his opinions—I’ll crush them in Part II.
Now he culminates his whole point with, “Such slanted viewpoints are not the sort of things one would find in public schools.” And I’m giving a resounding “D’oh”. Of course not. That’s assuming that a scriptural view is slanted instead of straight and that a secular, humanist view is straight and not slanted. We’ll see how that stands up in Part II.
This is getting worse, but there’s more coming. Vision Forum is his worst enemy it appears, and of course, when you’re an “Extreme Left” Christian. So let’s attack them. We should all be prepared now to see through his technique.
“The list grows even more scary,” says Wilky, “Vision Forum publishes a catalogue for the crowd with a young man holding a sword in his hand under the publication’s title “A Line in the Sand.” Inside … are such gems as a book by Nancy Campbell telling young Christian women they must be fruitful and multiply as often as possible … to accomplish the Dominion theme of the author.”
It’s totally true, except the theme is not dominion. I wrote about this multiplying thing before here. I agree with Nancy, I have 5 siblings, I’ve got a small family. Big families are cool, you need to have a totally different worldview to have them though. Nancy has been contacted to answer a few questions, coming up in Part II.
He goes on to complain about southern slanted books, and reconstructionist authors, and claims that Vision Forum associates itself with authors who advocate slavery is a modern grand biblical idea. I’m contacting Vision Forum this morning to answer that. Check back for the answer in Part II.
“Other works advocate the idea that the nation is officially a Christian nation. Several Reconstructionist authors are promoted with the ideas expressed in the catalogue that young boys must be taught to grow up to take dominion of the state. Separation of church and state is a non-biblical idea, much like the view that democracy is for cowards.”
That paragraph was so prejudiced it made me laugh. If that made you laugh, keep reading.
“Military themes are common in the titles of books. Young boys are encouraged to defend the honor of their sisters. Women are taught that they are to submit unto their husband’s wishes…”
That made me frown. What on earth is he trying to do here? During our email interview he admitted that he doesn’t have any problems with boys defending their sister’s honor or wives submitting to their husbands. “Although,” he says, “The submissive woman thing can get complicated in some situations.” I appreciate that Wilky doesn’t see those things as bad, but it appears he still thinks they’re far out.”
“I have often heard people complain about what is being taught in public schools. To be honest, I haven’t yet heard of many items as far out as these examples.”
Anybody want to help me remedy that?
Visit my site to find some explanation. I do not lament the fact of seeing the world through Biblical views.David I just suggest you check out who you have your wagon attached to. Vision Forum is headed by a noted Reconstructionist. Do your homework and find out what these people believe, (latest magazine www.chalcedon.edu pushed the gold standard for economics and claims FDR pormoted government facism). These people want to do away with separation of church and state (a Baptist doctrine) and kill homosexuals etc. They also advocate slavery as a Biblical idea. These types do not promote a “Christian worldview as much as they are tied to the John Birch Society. Invest some good $ and purchase KINGDOM COMING, by Michelle Goldberg. She connects homeschooling to Reconstructionists. Not all homeschoolers are like this, but there is a movement amidst them that is moving in the wrong direction. It is not Christian. I promote Christian views but not Rushdoony’s. (Do your homework and look up R. J. Rushdoony and see what he believes.) Best wishes.
Wilkey, I agree with Rushdooney almost to a T. He answers all your misconceptions here: http://www.chalcedon.edu/credo.php
Read through particularly Misconception 2 and 8.
David, fascinating post. I agree 100%!
And, I think there’s a lot of merit to the gold standard and the FDR was a terrible president, in many ways.
I have to comment again…
Rushdoony was a brilliant, incredible man. Philosophically, he was amazing. The One and the Many changed my life.
Why is it bad for boys to defend their sisters or for wives to submit to their husbands? These are completely biblical ideas.
Then you boys believe “Democracy is for cowards.” Canadians are different that the states but we tend to admire Democracy. You also doubt the holocaust, flirt with racism, admire the John Birch Society are 5 point Calvinists, and want to impose Old Testament law on the state. Even Falwell and other fundies do not want to be attached to R. J. Rushdoony because he was so far out. Ye remind me of World Magazine who said my article was slanted, yet both of you varify the facts of its content. You admitt to Rushdoony. You would have been better off in a public school where this right wing extremism was not spoon fed to you.
Go to my site www.livingston.net/wilkyjr and click on number 17. Then, after reading about R.J. and the movement do you claim to adhere to these things I claim they believe in? The site you listed puts a spin on what they have promoted. Their paper trail is evident and they have been on the radar for this stuff by almost every group in the nation that monitors the hard right. Author Michelle Goldberg quotes the ADL on the reference on RJ and his belief that Democracy is for cowards.
Ok Wilkey, face it, I never read a word of Rushdooney’s until yesterday. I heard about Vision Forum a year ago, but I only agreed with them because I already did, not because they converted me. Would I be better off where I was fed left wing extremism?
“Democracy is for Cowards”—You know, as evil as that sounds, it might have a point. Democracy is what the United States is becoming, not what it was or even is still. The difference is, US is/was a Republic—democratically elected. A democracy says that if the majority want to kill an innocent man, kill him. A republic acts upon declared principles. In this case, America was founded upon Biblical principles so we have a double reason to want to keep it a Republic.
I don’t doubt the holocaust. Naturally with everything there is coverups. I’ve learned however that taking your statements at face value is not wise, so it’s sitting in a platter of salt right now.
I have no idea what the John Birch Society is, therefore I reserve my opinion.
I am not a Calvinist, in this area I disagree with him. However most of my readers are. We are entitled to theological differences. Being a Calvinist doesn’t make you a lesser Christian.
I am not attached to Rushdooney, I told you I agreed with him. There may be other issues I disagree with him on.
Again you have an inherent problem in all your thoughts. You fear we are all like unto the left. I and most of my readers do not follow people blindly, we are the leaders, we follow God. If we agree with others it is because we already agree with them or come to see things the same. We don’t say, “Oh, I like Rushdooney. So therefore everything he says absolutely right.” He very well might be wrong on things, I havn’t investigated him very deeply. Therefore, my wagon is not attached to any particular group, individual, or teaching. It is only people like you who have such a desire to ‘prejudice by association’, that put us into a follow the leader position and have us chewing on eachothers tales.
Karen, btw, as I said in my article, above: “During our email interview he admitted that he doesn’t have any problems with boys defending their sister’s honor or wives submitting to their husbands. “Although,” he says, “The submissive woman thing can get complicated in some situations.” I appreciate that Wilky doesn’t see those things as bad, but it appears he still thinks they’re far out.””
So Wilkey doesn’t really see them as bad, but apparently as ‘far out’.
I was going to comment on the gold standard, but stopped because it can get really off track, like we already are.
Maybe some other time I’ll make a post about it.
Thanks for commenting Karen, and thanks for the link too, much appreciated!
So, David, you don’t “Agree with Rushdoony almost to a T.” If I have caused you to have some concerns about a movement that is very much a part of homseschool literature then I have done my job.If interested in the John Birch Society you can read my site’s article. Publishing articles is making a point, an accurate one I hope, but making some point or folks wouldn’t be interested in publication. I am sure Rushdoony did some great things and held some solid Biblical views. This movement I write about tore up the largest denomination in the U.S. I thus got interested and hve tried to keep up with it.
I know we’re getting into technicals here. But I deliberately said ‘almost’. On the 2 subjects we were addressing I more or less agree with the statements found on the page I gave you.
Needless to say, your site is not a resource for accurate information unfortunately.
I can’t say you have made me concerned about Rushdooney. I am a critical thinker, and I don’t adhere to anything I don’t know to be true. I would disagree with Rushdooney or Vision Forum or anybody as soon as I would with you, if I thought them to be unbiblical.
The irony is that Pastor Wilky is the one arguing against “separation of Church and State.” After all, what do you have when Christian families participate in the public school system? A “violation” of that “unbreakable wall!” Comical, really…he wants to keep the Judeo-Christian ethic far away and would rather Christians be given humanistic worldview training than the Godly instruction of their parents. Simply put, this article disgusts me. As a homeschool graduate, I can tell you that nothing in my worldview has been spoonfed. My theology comes from MY studies of the Scriptures. My worldview is based upon the Word of God because it, alone, claims to be the sufficient foundation. Everything I believe is founded upon it…not Vision Forum, not conservative politics, and certainly not some other organizations.
Pastor, the Lord has a word for you…in Galatians 1. Check it out.
Grace and Peace,
David Ketter
I am still waiting for some simple statement of what someone here might find that is not accurate in my article found on www.ethicsdaily.com. You have backed off on RJ and Vision Forum, when I showed you what was there you were not aware of. I suggest you folks go to college, an accredited one that is. Some folks used to denounce the use of fans because the Bible taught the wind blew where it wills…John 3;8. Thus some folks had a world view when they attacked James Meilkl for inventing winnowing fans in Scotland. Canada and the U.S. need educated citizens, I suggest you keep learning and growing. Give me some example of homeschool literature I can find comfort with that is not attacking the first amendment or telling white girls to be more fertile. Or a science book that is telling us they guarantee there is no such thing as global warming.
Coming up in Part 2. Hang in there.
How have I backed off? I’m more supportive now than a couple days ago since I’ve read some of Rushdooney’s stuff, that doesn’t mean I’m a blind follower of them. shakes head
As far as college, that is my intention, have you assumed otherwise?
“Give me some example of homeschool literature that I can find comfort with…”
This seems like an odd phrase. Neither homeschoolers nor public school students should be reading only that literature in which they take “comfort.” I am reading Rushdoony’s “Institutes of Biblical Law” right now. It is not comforting; I am having a very difficult time with it; I don’t always agree with it; but I am reading it.
As to global warming, fertility, and the first amendment. It is true that many (but certainly not all!) homeschool books take politically incorrect stances on these subjects. But do you not think it valuable to read things with which you disagree? I tend to look at such reading, when balanced with “the other side of the story”, as an opportunity to hone my beliefs, and my arguments supporting those beliefs, not as a thing to be avoided at all costs.
Wilkey, about the fertility thing… the way you put it is obviously prejudiced. I’m not a fanatic about the thing but the fact is that it’s not just on the lips of pro-family homeschoolers. In fact, it’s a huge issue in Europe right now. They’re paying people to have babies, and it’s still not working, they’re going to disappear. Canada has been paying a ‘baby bonus’ for a long time. Recently they had a huge article about it in the National Post. It’s a plain fact, western culture needs to hear it. Be fruitful and multiply! Or die off the face of the earth.
I love how he just ignored me…
Very interesting, David. I enjoyed reading your post. . . and the interaction here.
Just my thoughts here. You have had a good post David! I’m looking forward to part two.
Mr. Wilkey, I do not want to argue or even “discuss” this article like you are with David, but I was in the American public school system through the 5th grade. The school system isn’t even remotely unbiased, indeed, no system, anywhere on this planet, is unbiased. Without the other side giving their opinions, people couldn’t make up their own minds.
I respect your position, I even respect your article, but your constant picking at the little things David has said and just the way you have conducted your rebuttle from the beginning, has lowered my esteem for what you and your sources have to say.
I’ve seen both sides of the coin from their points of view, and I’m thankful that I am homeschooled. That is my opinion.
Again, I don’t want to argue, that isn’t why I’m here. I’m just here to say I’ve been there, and I’ve seen it from other points of view. This is the path we’ve chosen, please respect it.
Allison is another footnote to my concern. I sure she is a nice young lady…but she is being fed Rushdoony stuff because she is into the homeschool culture. Allison doesn’t want to grow up in a world where her pastor tells young men they are at liberty to kill their wives if they lied to them about not being a virgin. At least secular schools did not promote that to my knowledge. Keep growing and work on that world view. Some of you are making it hard for Christians to reach their nations with the gospel.
Editor’s Note: This comment is in violation of the standards Oneway Purpose uses to allow or deny commenting. As an exception Oneway Purpose has left this comment here.
Mr. Wilkey:
First and foremost there are two serious things which I would like to bring to your attention.
1)Please go and read Exodus 20:16
2)If that isn’t enough, please do yourself a favor and acquaint yourself with libel law.
Your last comment is atrociously false, arrogant, and desperate. You have unabashedly declared and intimated that homeschool culture = kill your wives if they lie. That is only one point on which you have continually utilized that pattern of attack.
That is first of all, slander, second- false witness, third- libel.
You have then declared the worldview of secular humanism that is taught in public schools to be accurate, straight, and beneficial to Christianity.
What you are attempting to do is to project homeschooling so far out that public schooling is not so far out. It doesn’t work, first of all because you cannot make yourself holy by slandering another, and secondly because you are bearing false witness.
Your worldview is so apparently in opposition to the Bible that I intend to simply let you keep clarifying your position as you have been. I don’t need to spend a time and effort to disprove your words – you keep disproving yourself.
You have obviously aligned yourself to the values taught in secular education. It is obvious what that worldview is working in you. You are welcome to send your children there.
In the meantime, keep going. But bear in mind what the Bible has to say about what you are doing.
Issac, you have a problem with Reconstruction, not with me. Reconstructionists have been clear about what they believe. I keep having to repeat myself by stating not all homeschool folks are taught this stuff. Many of them are good folks. In our region most teachers will tell you they are people who just use this as an excuse to drop out of school.
Mr. Wilkey,
I am not being “fed Rushdoony stuff” simply because I am “into the homeschooling culture”. When the homeschooling company my family buys from decided to included Rushdoony’s book in its curriculum, it received many letters of protest from other—homeschooling!—families. Their responses to the book were various, but most thought the book should not be included because of its Reconstructionist and Calvinist approach to doctrine and government. May I say again that these were, in fact, homeschoolers requesting that the book be removed from the curriculum.
In the end, the company decided to keep the book. Not because it agreed with everything Rushdoony promotes in “Institutes”, but because he is one of the few Christian writers who deals extensively with Old Testament law and its application in our modern culture. The company felt that it would be valuable for students to explore, dissect, and discuss this approach to law with their parents—simultaneously comparing it with a secular approach to government—if only to reaffirm why they did not agree with Rushdoony.
As to your second point, regardless of my own opinion, Rushdoony certainly has the right (under the First Amendment) to promote his own interpretation of Old Testament law in this matter. Likewise, I, and other homeschoolers, have the right to accept or reject that interpretation (and I should point out here that I do have some very strong concerns regarding his interpretation and application of Old Testament law; I am certainly not a convert yet).
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my comment.
My apologies if I have commented along the same vein, twice in a row. My first attempt at commenting resulted in an error page, so I am unsure if it went through or not. Thus, I have written a second comment submission.
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Well, this is certainly a very stimulating conversation, now isn’t it? It has left me bristling and fighting the urge to jump right into the melee. As it is, I don’t trust myself to add a sharp edge to what I say, and I have been trying to say things that are constructive, not destructive. This means that at this time I will refrain from joining in on the debate.
However, I would like to add a link to an article entitled “It’s the Demography, Stupid”, as a footnote to David Boskovic’s comments on “fertility”. It is not written from “the homeschooling culture”. I have no information on whether the author is a Christian or not. This does not negate the article, though – if anything, it adds to it. Proof that having a large family is not simply Reconstructionist wives whose only purpose in life is to have babies. (Note to self: tongue-in-cheek. Don’t go beyond tongue-in-cheek.)
It’s a little long-winded, but it’s well worth the time:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007760
It grieves me deeply to see a man “working for the Lord” use tactics. Mr. Wilkey, takes labels and shoves folks into them and then condemns without understanding the those he is labeling and attacking. This is the best example of how the worldly thinking has married the church and defiled her. When preachers no longer hold dear to a biblical pattern for living and idolize humanistic thinking, you know we are in grave danger. It is even more grievous when a pastor takes it upon himself to persecute those who are striving to live for God. Somewhere Mr. Wilkey has forgotten love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul and mind. Mr. Wilkey has given into a pagan society with secular beliefs and revels in it. He has villified those who are striving to do all for the glory of God, including operating a godly system of government. He has done so by taking discerning people and suggesting they are being brain washed and in a movement. How very very sad.
Mr. Wilkey,
You have an interesting way of putting things. I’ve noted your association with the Texas Freedom Network and others that ascribe to that worldview. Putting your name and the name of the congregation you shepherd alongside the theologically liberal (euphimism for heretical)should be plenty for all to see. I don’t expect that we would see eye to eye, though in practical terms any defence of the public education system as it exists is simplistic. An exodus from this system by concerned Christian parents hardly warrants criticism in my view. It is indeed commendable. Pointing out the extreme cases to defend your position is a little too simplistic though. I have seen the nutcases pull out their children in the name of “homeschool” and even in the name of Christ. But then again you claim what you do in the name of Christ as well. In both the nutcase and yours, it is the same. Justification without the authority of the Word of God. Your arguments are those of an attorney in a courtroom in a post-modern society, not those of a theologian handling accurately the Word of Truth. If indeed “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work “(2Tim 3:16)
and it is, then use it sir. Otherwise to those in gallery I recommend 2Timothy 3:5 with regard to Mr. Wilkey “holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these”
I do not agree with the Texas Freedom Network on gay rights and abortion. I go along with much of their first amendment ideas. Like you all keep claiming, you take some but not all of Reconstruction.
To be honest, you keep using language to lead me to believe Rushdoony has had a great deal of influence on you all, which is exactly the point Michelle Goldberg made of the homeschool movement. If so, you are thus way out of the mainstream of even the conservative movement in Christianity. If my local school was using textbooks written by Carl Marx I would object to the board. If homeschoolers are using Reconstruction stuff I will object also. Neither one of them believed in Democracy…some of you don’t like it I read here…..
And he CONTINUES to ignore me…
Mr. Wilkey…
Please, go back to the Scriptures…forget politics, society, culture. Forget it all. What do the Scriptures say?
Thank’s for the article David. I would just like to leave my two tid bits on the subject. After being homeschooled my whole life, I don’t know why people think that homeschooling is “far out”. The reason my parents homeschooled us was in keeping with the command in Exodus and the goal of a Christian world view. This view is mandantory, because we are commanded to not be conformed to this world (Romans 12). Mr. Wilkey, I know nothing is perfect, but I am going to college and am SO glad I was homeschooled when I see thousands of people who can not read, write or solve problems. Being homeschooled taught me to not take things for granted and be able to think on my own. Students in the educational system in general have difficulty thinking independently and are consequently very ill prepared for life. This is because they are endoctrinated with rank brain warshing from first grade. If you think that homeschoolers are far out there, do some research on the state of the education system today. Perhaps when the schools become at least a tenth from the bottom of the international pile, homeschoolers will return. By the way, homeschooling is not new, it has been done for thousands of years. I am most thankful I have been homeschooled and will continue to do the same with my children.
David, the scriptures say you ought to be a Baptist Eph. 2; 8-9, love Democracy (Acts 6), and the Sermon on the Mount tells us Jesus has a higher ethic than the Old Testament Law.
Some have used rather insulting language directed toward me. I am getting ready to go for a week to church camp and I will be teaching the Ten Commandments to about 50 people. Some of these kids are pretty tough street smart folks that have all ready seen it all. They all went to public schools. If I invited the Methodist minister to speak to us, I can guarantee you that none of them would insult him and imply he was not taking the Bible seriously. Most (not mine) criticisms of homeschooling I hear is that it shelters children from reality and they have a hard time adjusting to the real world.
Wilkey, Wilkey, Wilkey….
The Scriptures say we must believe in Christ, not a denomination, for our salvation. The Scriptures tell us to “honor the emperor” and any authority over us – not just democracy (btw, the US is a republic, not a democracy). The Scriptures tell us to cast the immoral man from the Church…the Sermon on the Mount actually takes the Law to a higher extreme. If you read the OT law, you see that adultery is punishable by death. Jesus, in turn, says that so much as looking at a woman lustfully is adultery…punishable by death. Is it really a code of ethics? I would say it’s a demonstration of God’s unrelenting expectations…and the all-encompassing importance of His grace.
I would encourage you to check out Agent Tim Online for an excellent Biblical (and Baptist
) defense of homeschooling.
Wilkey,
You must be intentionally ignorant in this last post.
There is only one body of believers in God’s kingdom. Denominations make no difference. God knows are hearts and that’s what matters. There are a thousand forms of Baptists and half of them don’t even know what they believe.
I must ask do you think that believing the Bible and asking Jesus to be your savior is enough? Many people who say they are Baptists have done just this but haven’t been transformed. Is that what God really expects from his people? Not even close. We are supposed to be transformed by his word and we are supposed to be salt and light to the world. We are supposed to be of one mind. The real Christians are critical thinkers and I see David saying here that he is a critical thinker.
Because we are generally critical thinkers, when you make blatent attacks on all homeschoolers you will find resistance. Keep your comments to specific, verifiable examples. If you are right in your assertions very few Christians will argue with you.
Acts 6 has nothing to do with Democracy. Those men were selected by God through the spirit through the believers. A true representative democracy is scary to any Christian. Most people are unsaved and not believers. The Bible makes that clear. Remember wide is the path that leads to hell narrow is the path to heaven. Even Jesus said in the end that he will judge and to many of us that say “Lord, Lord” he will cast us away because he never knew us. My hope is I am not in that group anymore.
Only a biblical government would support the minorities and make no mistake in any Government anywhere in the world the real Christians that are willing to stand up and share what Gods word has to teach us today are in the tiny, tiny minority.
The Hamas were democraticly elected.
Jesus explained the Old Testament law, he did not abbolish it. Don’t forget that. While we may be saved by grace you don’t have free reign to trample all over God. We should know Gods law. However we are told that it is not are place to cast final judgement on a person. Our responses are to be tempered by mercy, forgiveness, and love. We are to try to see people through Gods eyes. So while your statement is true about Jesus calling us to a higher level your implication that the Old Testament is not important is a lie from Satan.
Satan has nothing better to do than to try to carve up the body of Christ. Any time he divides us he wins and he wins ALOT.
Assuming you are both on Gods side why are you arguing? Show your case clearly and let it stand.
Davids main objection appears to be that you aren’t specific and thus are wrong.
I would say you are wrong in most cases but that may be because I don’t see the material you are looking at. I’m always interested in false teaching.
-Chris
Some excellent thoughts here David. I read Mr. Wilkey and then came across yours. You refuted some of his points very well. I have been engaging in a online “debate” of sorts with another Baptits minister, Dr. Tony Beam. You may be interested in that viewpoint as well.
You know…I wrote this a few days ago.
http://homeschoolgeek.blogspot.com/2006/05/some-christian-leaders-dont-like.html
Primarily in response to Dr West who recently used Dr Beam to reaffirm his position.
-Chris
Today my thoughts are on the demographics issue. Were you aware that between 1990 and 2001 the number of us Christians increased by 5.3% but the percentage of the population decreased by 8.5%.
Do you know the big winners in the demographics game? Non-Christian sects other than Jews did real well…but the real winners were Athiests. They increased by 105.7% or 6.6% of the overall population.
The only demographic losers were Christians and Jews.
Do you really want to tell me that public schools aren’t behind this trend? I’m going to dig a bit more and try to corelate the data to age groups if I can. I fully expect to see that the age group that most dramaticly changed will be 30 and under.
If that trend continues the debate will be a footnote in history. Homeschoolers might be right but it may be too late.
I will be surprised if the older generations changed equally with the younger generations because Proverbs 22:6 would indicate that once trained in God we will not (or are less likely certainly) to change. Indeed, I have heard liberals say this as a criticism of many Christians.
-Chris
Interesting Chris. Oneway Purpose will be addressing this subject next week—feel free to email me any resources you come across.
Second time I’ve ever commented on a blog and you are doing a great job! Enjoying this discussion, sad that a “pastor” has such negative views of fellow Christians and homeschoolers.
Thought you might like this link http://www.americandeception.com/ Several articles regarding public education and how the system is set up for students to fail.
Here are a few interesting quotes:
“You can’t make Socialists out of individualists. Children who know how to think for themselves spoil the harmony of the collective society which is coming where everyone is interdependent.”—John Dewey, reformer, father of the modern American public school system
“The education of all children, from the moment that they can get along without a mother’s care, shall be in state institutions at state expense.”—Karl Marx 1848
“The aim of public education is not to spread enlightenment at all; it is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed a standard citizenry, to put down dissent and originality.”—H.L. Mencken
“To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.”—Thomas Jefferson
Keep up the good work David!
Just so everyone knows, the John Birch Society is an ultra-conservative group. My mum’s got a cousin who used to be a part of it. I don’t think all their views are correct. I mean, I think they could be considered as something like right-wing extremists.
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On Acts 6 and Democracy
There are several problems in deciding that because of Acts 6 we should all support ‘Democracy’
1)The sphere is wrong. God has outlined in Scripture several spheres of authority; ranging from that of the individual man, through the family and church, proceeding past government into spiritual authorities… ending in God himself. (Scripture available upon request). The particular sphere dealt with here is the local church; a far different sphere from that of the government. And each sphere has its particular ways of being organized and dealing with its members. Elders, for example, are to discipline church members. However it would be a mistake to take the discipline required of parents, namely the rod, and carry it over into the church.
2)You mistake what is actually going on in Acts 6. The elders (here the apostles) are actually ruling. They request the congretation (here the multitude) to choose some men for a particular service… to wait on tables. If you wish to see how the leaders were chosen, I am afraid it was not at all a democratic process. The original apostles were chosen directly by God; one additional apostle was chosen by lot, and Paul was chosen, again, directly by God. Then elders in the various churches were appointed.
3)It is odd that you would attempt to make a strained (and flawed) comparison between NT church government and civil government. If you wished to see how God would put together a civil government; why did you not look to the various civil governments God actually put together? They range from Patriarchal, to clan eldership, to Judges, to kings. However at no point does he institute a democracy.
4)As has already been pointed out, you mistake the nature of the government you are living under. As Benjamin Franklin responded, when asked what kind of government the congress had instituted, he replied ‘A Republic… if you can keep it’.
I looked them up on the internet, and here is what I found about the John Birch Society:
John Birch Society
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The John Birch Society is an Americanist organization founded in 1958 to fight what it saw as growing threats to the Constitution of the United States, especially a suspected communist infiltration of the United States government, and to support free enterprise.
It was named after John Birch, a United States military intelligence officer and Baptist missionary in World War II who was killed in 1945 by armed supporters of the Communist Party of China, and whom the JBS describes as “the first American victim of the Cold War.” His parents joined the society as life members.
Based in Appleton, Wisconsin, the society describes itself as “a membership-based organization dedicated to restoring and preserving freedom under the United States Constitution.” It says that members come from all walks of life and are active in all 50 states via local chapters. Its mission is to achieve “Less Government, More Responsibility, and — With God’s Help — a Better World.”
The JBS was formed as an educational organization and does not endorse candidates.
Contents
[hide]
* 1 Core values
* 2 Origins
* 3 Robert Welch and The Politician
* 4 1960s
* 5 1970s
* 6 After Welch
* 7 New American
* 8 In popular culture
* 9 Presidents
* 10 CEOs
* 11 Other notable members in history
* 12 See also
* 13 External links
* 14 Further reading
o 14.1 Supporting the John Birch Society
o 14.2 Criticizing the John Birch Society
o 14.3 Published or promoted by the John Birch Society
[edit] Core values
The JBS is anti-leftist, particularly anti-socialist, anti-communist, and anti-authoritarian. It strenuously defends what it sees as the original intention of the US Constitution, it promotes the idea that America is founded on Judeo-Christian principles, and it supports a strong Judeo-Christian influence in culture and government. It idealizes the Founding Fathers and anti-communists. The JBS opposes what it describes as collectivism, which in its view includes wealth redistribution, economic interventionism, socialism, communism, and fascism. The JBS claims that collectivist conspiracies throughout the world have significantly shaped history, and it seeks to expose and eliminate their claimed control in government in the modern era. This degree of conspiracism has isolated the Society from many other conservative groups.
During the 1960s, the JBS opposed aspects of the Civil Rights Movement due to concerns that the movement had a number of communists in important positions and due to the fact that it was backed and supported by the American Communist Party. For example, in 1962, Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy warned Martin Luther King, Jr. that, “communist agents were manipulating King”. Then, in 1963, President John F. Kennedy also told King of his concern regarding two communist members and asked they be removed. Groups such as the radical terrorists, the Weatherman (organization) demonstrated the fringe of the Civil Rights Movement. Yet, the John Birch Society has always described itself as being open to people of all races and religions and is staunchly against racist beliefs.
Finally, the JBS is anti-globalization and has an illegal immigration reduction view on immigration reform. It has been a major opponent of the United Nations, NAFTA, CAFTA, and the FTAA, and other free-trade agreements with other nations, believing them to be destructive to American principles and sovereignty.
Hi
Very interesting information! Thanks!
G’night